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Post by skreyola on Aug 19, 2011 21:31:26 GMT -5
A thread for OOC stuff for the Dragon Academy campaign.
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Post by skreyola on Aug 19, 2011 22:03:08 GMT -5
So, I'm looking at the Draconomicon, and it seems like, at level five, the only dragon option open is wyrmling white dragon. Everything else needs a higher ECL.
Noob: I'm assuming you're going to allow something beyond ECL 5 for starting out? Otherwise, the whole idea is flawed. If that's the case, you need to provide us with some idea of what the available options are, or else adjust the ECLs for your campaign. I know you have expressed unwillingness in the past to do this, but I'm not sure how we're supposed to play a dragon campaign if we can't pick most of the dragons for starting out. And are the alignments of the dragons set like in MM, or can they be a different alignment because they were raised in daptivity?
Ignoring the ECLs, here's my character idea: A young? Copper Dragon whose long-term goal is to avenge his dragon parents. Loneshadow's character rescued his egg after his dragon parents were slain by someone. I'm guessing we're getting two feats (1st, 3rd)... but do we roll stats or use the ones in the MM, and do we get skill points, if so how many?
Alternately, I could play a halfling ranger preparing to prestige in dragonrider. Loneshadow: Thoughts?
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Post by Lil' Ragnaros on Aug 20, 2011 0:45:49 GMT -5
32 pt. build Anything wizards 3.0/3.5 but cite sources. Especially for dragon magazine or campaign settings. Obvious banned stuff = gestalt, statistical impossibilities (diminutive sized, dragon born, half fire elemental, half dragon, monk with a dragon shell husk and a turtle shell hermit.) Please keep feat retraining, skill retraining, psionics, fighter magic, incarnate magic, essentia, action points, and anything you know will get boring after 2 sessions to a minimum. Anything you use, I will use. You have 1 life, I have infinite monsters.
Needless to say, 1 person must be a true dragon(the 75+ types) and the other must be something humanish (practically anything that falls into the categories of playable characters or races. Illithad for example.) If you play something with a higher la+ecl of 5, just have a level progression chart planned out and approved until that point. Many can be found in Savage Species or in Dragon Magazine. If you are playing a dragon with a starting wyrmling ecl above 5: you have 2 choices. Use a level progression chart (either from Dragon Magazine or build one yourself) or start with maximum HD possible then pay off the LA.
What I need from you guys: Life Aspiration. Short term goals. If you were to get a 9-5 job, what would it be? How much NPC interaction you want and how much detail you want? Do you want the NPCS to engage in conversation or should I just skip to the main points in their speeches? Should I fully explain how things are when you see them or let you deduce them slowly? Most importantly: An open mind.
"I don't care" is only an acceptable answer here if you will remain with a not caring attitude when you are sitting there bored.
Alignments are based on actions, not stereotypes. Just be ready to explain or justify them in whatever way. Being Lawful does not mean acting lawful in all actions, it just means a majority of your choices will be towards the more lawful side. Also, just because you are born inherently good or evil, does not mean you will be that for the rest of the game.
Other helpful Info: Dragon stats can be found in the beginning section of MM 1 in the dragon entry pg68. Each dragon's favored class is dragon and have class skills as noted under skills and under each different dragon entry. A dragon's racial ability modifiers are the MM base entries + or - depending on these formulas: If Odd, stat-11. 13 = +2, 15=+4 If Even, stat - 10. 12 = +1, 14 = +2 etc. If below 10, then just inverse it. 8 or 9 = -2, 6 or 7 = -4, etc. ALL characters gain feats and skill points based on TOTAL HD. Hit Dice + Level Adjustment = ECL. An ECL 20 character with 1 HD and 19 LA has 1 feat, 1 HD worth of HP, etc. Class levels grant HD. A creature with HD 2 + 2 Fig Levels + LA 2 = ECL 6 and has 2 feats (1st and 3rd+ any for fighter class features) 4 HD of skill points according to either class or race, and 4 HD of HP. Once you get above the Monster Manual ECL for dragons, I'll switch to Draconomicon which states that a dragons new ECL = It's minimum age categories ECl - 1 + 1 per each age category it has. A wyrmling has 3, the next category will have 4, and so on up until 12 at great wyrm. Each dragon also has 3 HD between age categories. Dragons will age through xp. At every 4 levels you gain,(3 HD and 1 LA) you gain an age category regardless of actual time passage.
I HIGHLY suggest that if you are a true dragon, you stick to dragon and do not venture much further than a few levels in any actual class. It might make you massively more powerful now but when you start fighting other adult dragons who are pure levels in dragons, you will lose.
1 level wizard gives you +d6 hp, 4+int skill points, 1 wizard casting, a familiar, and scribe scroll 1 Dragon level gives you +d12 hp, 6+int retro skill points and puts you 1 level closer to free sorcerer casting, more dr, more sr, more spells, more abilities, more damage, more attacks, and anything that comes from growing older/bigger.
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Post by skreyola on Aug 20, 2011 22:58:41 GMT -5
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Copper Dragon (3.0 MM p73) has a CON score of 13. Your entry says this means a racial bonus of +2 to CON? So, if I buy to 13 CON, I actually get 15?
As to alignment, I was more wondering if, in your campaign, a paladin would ever partner with a green dragon, or if the alignment held enough to prevent such a matchup.
I am Stanley, a wyrmling copper dragon intent on discovering who killed my dragon parents, and as a short-term goal, to learn all I will need to know to be a good dragon mount. In addition to (and after) avenging my heritage, I want to become a merchant trader on the side of my duties to my adopted humanoid parent. 9-5 job, probably courier. I want a fair balance between NPC interaction and other things, like combat or puzzles. I want NPCs to get straight to the point, then add details when questioned and then engage in conversation as long as they hold our interest. Explain obvious features we notice in general terms, with some hints or extra description of important facets of a room, unless they are specifically part of a puzzle. In other words, if the doodad sitting in plain sight on the table is important, it should probably look fancy/old/complex/interesting, but if one of the knobs on the mirror turns to trigger a secret passageway, mention only that the mirror has a number of knobs sticking out of it and let us see that one is different only if we examine it more closely. My stats: STR 12 DEX 10 CON 14+2 INT 14+1 WIS 14+2 CHA 15+1 My calculations show 84 skill points. I have 5HD and 2 LA to pay off. HP: 55
Does all of that look correct?
I'm hoping Loneshadow picks a small race, so he can ride that much sooner... unless the GM wants to use my idea of special weight balancing saddles that allow riding smaller mounts.
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Post by pushaw on Aug 21, 2011 8:20:39 GMT -5
Ok, I think I`ve got a level progression for you to check.
Purple Dragon (Dragon magazine compendium PG198)
At lvl 5: 3hd 2la +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis BAB +3, Fort+3, Ref+3, Will+3 Breath weapon 2d4
Progression: 6 - +1 Str, +1d12 hd, +1 BAB, Breath Weapon 2d6 7 - +1 Int, +1 Con, +1 saves 8 - +1 Str, +1 Cha, +1d12 hd, +1 BAB, Breath Weapon 2d8 9 - +1 Str, +1d12 hd, +1 BAB 10- +1 Int, +1 Con, +1 saves, Breath Weapon 2d10 11- +1 Str, +1 Cha, +1d12 hd, +1 BAB
This sound fair?
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Post by loneshadow on Aug 21, 2011 9:30:53 GMT -5
Well I plan to build 3 characters and pick one when we meet so at least there will be some variety in what I've got set up
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Post by Lil' Ragnaros on Aug 21, 2011 15:20:58 GMT -5
There are no +odd racial bonuses to stats. A Copper wyrmling should have 0/0/+2/+2/+2/+2 If It is odd, then subtract 11, if even, subtract 10. Don't forget at the next age category, those will go up again.
But yeah, a copper dragon would have your choice of either 5 hit dice then 2 levels of LA or 3 HD have have LA already payed off. 14 int = +2 = 8 skill points per level, 64 total at 5 HD.
Like I said, Alignments are based on actions, not stereotypes. L/G paladin 1 sees an indentured servants as slaves. L/G paladin 2 sees people honoring a debt they rightfully owe. L/G paladin 3 sees the true ploy, they are all evil. L/G paladin 4 sees the hidden waffles the GM placed as random loot. Even if the Green Dragon was L/G, they wouldn't cooperate unless their beliefs matched up.
Pushaw, Try and find something a bit more "fluid". Unless you really want to alter your stats every level. I am thinking of combining all the racial abilities and stats into the level you pay off the LA So in the case of a young copper dragon, once it reached minimum 6 HD and Maximum 8HD and paid off the 3 levels, it would gain everything the young dragon would have. (+2 str, and the 4d4 breath + any feats that rely on age categories.)
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Post by skreyola on Aug 21, 2011 16:58:12 GMT -5
loneshadow: Cool beans. Lil' Ragnaros: Okay. I got the +1 from your post. I'm happy to make it +2s instead. The MM says they get 6+(INT mod*HD). Now, I scaled them, so it's (for INT mod 2) 2+4+6+8+10 rather than retrocative, or 10+10+10+10+10 at 5HD. I think this is to balance the fact that they get next to nothing for class skills and have to pay 2 points for each rank. The MM also says an NPC/monster dragon will place points in such-and-such skills up to one rank per HD, which is impossible by your flat skill point calculation and none of them class skills. Or am I reading it wrong and all the skills it lists are class skills for dragons? Either way, 8*5 != 64. Could you answer the question I asked instead of lecturing me on how you think I don't understand alignment? I thought Pshaw was going to be the trainer, or rather, that Jay was going to be a silver dragon.
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Post by pushaw on Aug 21, 2011 18:30:11 GMT -5
Jay decided to go the cleric support rout, and I haven`t yet been a dragon in one of noob`s dragon games yet so I might as well. Lil' Ragnaros: I`d prefer to change my stats every level. It`ll give me the feeling that my char is actually growing at a steady rate, and It`s not much different then my stats jumping by 2 every other level.
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Post by Lil' Ragnaros on Aug 21, 2011 18:50:11 GMT -5
Yeah You might wanna reread what it says unless your reading out of 3.0 MM or SRD or something... The dragon buys those at 1:1 and they are treated as class skills. Those and the ones that are listed under the entry. For a copper dragon, its on page 83, left column under skills under combat section. Retroactive is a bad way to describe it but basically if you later get your intelligence up to 16, you would gain skills points for every other dragon hit dice you have already taken, not just those you gain in the future. If when you get 8 HD and raise int up to 16 or get racial bonus to int, you gain skill points equal to 6+int or 9 plus the 8 skills points you would have gained for a total of 17 in that level. You would then gain 9 per level until your int went up to 18 which then you would gain 10+1 per dragon HD before that. Yeah, 4/4 people have started asking dragon questions. Makes me think 4/4 are playing dragons. It's why I introduced this as a team game and for you guys to have teams prearranged so I don't have to sort this out. I pretty much have to lecture (i think it's more of explaining it in a different way) the whole alignment thing as though you don't understand alignment because else, why would you ask: As to alignment, I was more wondering if, in your campaign, a paladin would ever partner with a green dragon, or if the alignment held enough to prevent such a matchup. Maybe I am not understanding your question correctly. What part of this alignment thing wouldn't constitute for a paladin to partner with a green dragon? To answer your question on what happens when the party gets to 20... I think you need to actually take a regular dragon with 20 levels pure dragon and put it next to a straight 20 fighter or whatever class you will. Even with the cost of 3-5 levels lost from LA: A dragon will have: Barbarian's HP, Fighters bonus to hit, Monk's saves, Rogue's skills, Sorcerer's spell casting, Wizards Knowledge, Cleric's domains, Druid's spells in the form of spell like abilities. Rangers are just fighters and druids mixed. Each class as 1-2 advantages over a dragon but I am sure you already know them. Put side by side what a dragon gives up by taking 1 class into anything and you'll see why I say that dipping into anything hurts more than it helps unless you are trying to optimize something... Even after this, if you still do not believe me, I can run a core dragon in your campaign or we can set up a mock fight.
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Post by pushaw on Aug 21, 2011 19:01:11 GMT -5
From what I can tell Skrey and me are dragons, while Jay and Josh are not.
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Post by Lil' Ragnaros on Aug 21, 2011 19:12:49 GMT -5
pushawScanning through, looking for purple dragon, reading some of the abilities... (eyes grow wide) Just pointing out your burst ability hits ALL creatures. Just because you're eyes are closed and your facing away from the laser doesn't mean the energy that refracts off surfaces doesn't cause eye damage. @every1: Yeah, So I'm going to change it so that your current LA difference and your HD cannot be more than 1 away from each other... I initially thought that you should be forced to only get 1 starting HD then pay off LA ASAP and put the rest into HD but this seems like less extreme alternative. Reason: Specifically looking at purple dragon, by party level 7, pushaw will be an ECL 11. This way, by party level 7, Pushaw's ECL would be 8 (not 11) instead. Instead of starting with 5 HD and la +4, you'd be forced to start with 3 hd and have paid 2 LA off having a remaining 2 to later pay off. You'd have all the abilities of a wyrmling. If you really wanna keep track of all that info, up to you, though it's every 4 levels you gain those abilities. Just make sure that between levels 11 (7 hd and 4 ecls) and level 15 (10 HD and 5 ECL) you have a total of 4 strength increase, 2 con increase, 2 wisdom increase, and 2 charisma increase.
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Post by pushaw on Aug 21, 2011 19:18:11 GMT -5
Wait, how would I be ECL 11 by level 7? I still have to get to level 11 before paying off all of wyrmling.
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Post by Lil' Ragnaros on Aug 21, 2011 19:25:25 GMT -5
A wyrmling has 7 HD and 4 La. That's ECL 11. The idea is keep you as close to party level as possible. If you started with 5 HD and had no dragon abilities (flying, blind sense, Darkvision, bonus stats, etc.) that would be fair though highly nerfed. Ideally, You start with 1 HD and all Dragon abilities, then you'd start ecl 5, most desirable in the name of fairness. If you start with 3 hd 2 La and had all the abilities of a dragon, then you'd be ecl 7. Close enough to the party's level that you would not be seriously OP.
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Post by pushaw on Aug 21, 2011 19:32:37 GMT -5
I`m confused... Isn`t that how the progression I put up is? And how does 3+2=7?
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